So this week was all about giving Greninja a try. Is he now a potential secondary/pocket? Is he the answer when my Joker just can’t hit a Pikachu/Pichu/Ness/Lucas/Inkling/Mr. Game & Watch/Jigglypuff/Kirby?
Night One
So I did my research first like always. Bread and butter combos, kill confirms and some Greninja overview videos.
I also watched N64 Josh’s Smash Bros Ultimate 5 Tips for Beginners. I still need to work on these things. 1. Playing every character to get my main. 2. I am spending time in Training Mode each day. Once I have my main totally finalized I can concentrate on knowing all the combos and moves at different percents and on different characters. 3. Saving your replays. I’m trying to remember to save my replays in each tournament I enter. 4. Playing with people better than you. This is again something I’ll do more once I have my main locked in. But I am going to start at least trying to join friendly arena once a week, whether through a discord, Anther’s Ladder, or a stream. I have to remember to record those as well. Practice often and with intent – set achievable goals. I need to get better at this. I still have a lot to work on, maybe I need to set one or two advanced techs to practice each week until I’ve finally mastered them all.
Anyway, after my research I went into Training Mode. I practiced Greninja moves sets, his combos, his kill moves. I also practiced mashing out of moves and wall-jumping. Two things I should have down pat, but need to keep working on.
Then I warmed up in Smash Mode against three Level 5 CPUs. I lost a match and was having a bit of trouble getting used to Greninja’s movement and move-set. I want to continue always trying to take CPU stocks different ways, and I was really struggling getting a forward air kill with Greninja.
Then I went into Online Quickplay. I changed the preferred stages to Omega since Final Destination is considered Greninja’s best stage. Then I played 10 Online Quickplay matches against 10 different opponents. Since on Night One of a character tryout I never re-match. And I won 3 out of 10. But not won because someone messed up, actually won. And was pretty close on a few other matches. And beat a Falco, one of my demons! At the end of the night my GSP was over 200,000 which is probably the highest ever after 10 straight matches. Usually I’m well into 160,000 or lower.
Greninja felt good to me. It felt like he has a lot of tools. I did SD a couple of times, by going for down air offstage or not aiming my Up-B correctly. And there were a few times when I couldn’t get the kill. But this was a much more pleasant first night experience than most other characters. Though, after the first night, I wasn’t sure about him as a potential backup for Joker. Greninja should be able to hit smaller characters that Joker has trouble with easier, but Greninja feels like an tougher character overall to control. I thought Joker had to be precise with some of his confirms. With Greninja you can’t ever really do instant short hops with the jump/attack button trick because the attacks won’t work. Each jump has to be independent so you can time the aerials right. The idea that Greninja is a better character online because his confirms are consistent seems a bit weird – after night one they feel much more tighter than Joker’s.
Night Two
Night Two I started out practicing my wall jumps, wall clings (since Greninja can wall cling), Greninja’s recovery, mashing out of buries, edgeguarding and ledge trapping. Then I continued working on the combos and confirms. I was still struggling to connect a number of them.
Then I warmed up against Level 6 CPUs. Again, I lost one of the matches, but I was trying to get kills in different ways.
Then I went into Online Quickplay. Overall I only won two matches out of around 10. And I was getting annoyed at the end of the night, because I just wanted to play one more match to complete a third set, but I kept running into stupid rulesets like 1 stock or all stages. By the end of the night my GSP was well under 200,000.
It was more frustrating night overall. I felt like I was struggling to kill more with Greninja. I also felt like I was being very predictable. I think a problem is after watching a number of “How to play Greninja” videos they said don’t use dash attack, Side-B, or Counter in neutral. Insead save dash attack and Side-B for whiff punishes and Counter for hard reads. When I would try to follow that advice I was just getting blown up in neutral. But then I would spam Side-B and get super predictable. I know the best player and best Joker in the world MKLeo has switched to Greninja over Joker online. Leo says Joker’s confirms aren’t as consistent online. That may be true for him, but I could hardly connect any of Greninja’s moves at all. Greninja may require so much time he has to be a main, and can’t be a pocket or secondary.
Before this week started I was thinking of using Greninja as a secondary for Joker. The thought being he was similar enough to Joker (and covered some of the bad match-ups) that it wouldn’t require me to drastically change play-styles or keep a complicated character muscle memory. But after Night Two I was wondering if I should just officially make Rosalina & Luma my secondary? My original issue with her play-style being so different and bot letting her advanced tech get rusty seemed laugable. Keeping my falling B-Reverse Starbits skills locked down seemed much easier than remembering the different jump heights for each of Greninja’s aerials.
Night Three
Same practice and warm-up as the night before. Bumped up to Level 7 CPUs. Then I went to Online Quickplay. I went 2-1 and won the first set. Then I lost the next two sets. I finished it off facing a Jigglypuff, I lost the set 1-2 but I did get a win in, and I do think Greninja can hit Puff easier than Joker.
Then I went entered into three Omega tournaments in a row. I lost immediately the first two. I won the first game of the third tournament and lost easily in round two. Oddly I fought a a heavy each Omega tournament. Winning one game was more than I expected honestly.
I know the common thought is that Greninja is good against heavies because of his speed, but after playing multiple Ganondorfs, King Dedede’s, and King K. Rool’s this night, I don’t think I agree. I would get maybe 60% off of one or two combos and a neutral hit. But a Ganondorf hits Greninja with two nairs and catches him with the up Smash and my stock is gone. Or I wasn’t able to avoid every King K. Rool Blunderbuss and then he dash attacks into me at 50% and I die.
I was a bit distraught at how poorly Greninja did against heavies. Maybe glass canon characters just don’t fit my playstyle? But then I went into Classic Mode. Like I’ve been doing put it up to 5.0 to start. And I breezed through Greninja’s classic mode. Only died once against Crazy Hand and Master Hand. Finished with the my Highest Classic Mode Score on my highest difficulty.
I was honestly surprised at how well I did with Greninja. Maybe I was just in the zone for Classic Mode? After this night my opinion changed on Greninja again. Maybe he is a valid secondary? After all I’m not going to be switching off Joker for any heavies. And I was living to almost 150% with Greninja against the middle and lightweights because of his recovery. To cover Joker’s bad match-ups you need to cover the rats(Pikachu, Pichu), the psyhic kids (Ness, Lucas), the floaties (Jigglypuff, Kirby), Inkling, and Sonic. I think Greninja’s size and speed and his counter makes him a great counter-pick for those characters.Even if he doesn’t technically “win” those match-ups I think he has a better chance than Joker. Lucina and Mega Man are the two other bad match-ups for Joker. Mega Man is about even, actually slightly losing for Greninja. But consensus is Joker loses to Mega Man so hard so I would still probably switch to Greninja if I made him my a secondary. Honestly the Lucina match-up I don’t mind so much with Joker. I do sometimes struggle against Swordies with Joker; but it’s usually Ike, Chrom, Roy, or the non Fire Emblem swordies like Shulk, Cloud, and the Links. If you lose to a Lucina or Marth I think it’s usually because your opponent has good fundamentals, not because of the match-up. But I suppose you could say that about every match-up.
Night Four
It was one of those nights. Same training and warm-up as before. Then I went online and lost six matches in a row in Online Quickplay and four Omega tournament matches. Looking back on these matches, yes my approach was too predictable. I kept dashing into a Shadow Sneak and every opponent was just blocking it and then grabbing me. Trying to follow the “best practices” for Greninja just wasn’t working for me. “Don’t use dash attack in neutral”. “Don’t use Shadow Sneak on stage” “fair can be punished if you throw it out as first option”. “Only use bair as a mix-up”. “Greninja has no grab range”. “Don’t shield, Greninja has no out of shield options”. I think trying to remember all that was really messing me up. Also, following all the best practices for Greninja neutral game what is even left to do? Dash dance, throw out falling nairs, and approach with tilt attacks? Using tilt attacks is just harder online because of the input lag, they always seem to lose to other attacks.
So Night Four was a big bust.
Night Five
Night Five I followed the same steps as always. This time I did a bit better in Online Quickplay. I think I won two matches overall. And I continued to work on my neutral game with Greninja. Staying out of range, dashing in when I saw an opening, jumping and then waiting to see where my opponent was before I decide which aerial to throw out. It seems like you have to be quite a bit more disciplined with Greninja than with other characters. I was still getting frustrated losing to heavyweights. You avoid the opponent for the majority of the stock with Greninja, but get a few stray hits on you and then fall into one Smash attacks and you’re done.
Night Six
Night six I continued labbing in Training Mode. By this night I think I had mashing, wall jumping, and wall clinging down. I was still struggling with edgeguarding and ledgetrapping with Greninja though. This night I also watched a number of the top Greninja players’ matches. Considering how great Greninja’s recovery, it was interesting to see how very little they would pursue opponents offstage. I guess it’s because Greninja will often lose to other aerials offstage, so giving up stage control isn’t worth it.
I was streaming this night at https://www.twitch.tv/mark_the_stampede. I was doing pretty bad in Online Quickplay, though I did at least win match. Then I played an Arena with a viewer who was a Greninja main. He was way better than me. He really showed me how to play Greninja. I never won a match, and there’s in one game I never actually hit the other Greninja I only put on 5% from Hydro Pump’s hitbox. Then he beat my Greninja with Ganondorf. But it was very informative, and helped me improve my Greninja play.
Night Seven
Night Seven, I was going through the normal routine, but I also decided to play some Spirit Board before going online. Not sure if that helped or not, but sometimes it’s fun to play under weird conditions and try to win limited-time spirits.
Then I went online. In Online Quickplay, I did about as good as usual. I won a set. I won another game. Lost two other sets. I was still getting a bit frustrated by dying so early to heavier characters. Then I went entered an Omega tournament. And lost the first round. Then I entered another one. This was a small 8-player tournament..but I won! The first time I ever won an online tournament! I was pretty hyped. Luckily I didn’t have to face any heavies, I beat a Zero Suit Samus, a Link, and then a Mario. And in the Final I came back to win. I lost my first stock to the Mario when they were only at 40%, but was able to avoid most of the hits on my second stock and finish the comeback.
So, I was pretty much done with Online that night, since I wanted to end on a high note, but I wanted to test Greninja against some of Joker’s bad match-ups. I mentioned the match-ups early in this post. I had already tested Greninja early in the week against Pikachu,Inkling, and Pichu and that hadn’t gone so well. But that was earlier in the week, when I didn’t really have the hang of Greninja. So I played against Level 9 Mega Man, Sonic, Ness, and Lucina and beat every one with Greninja. And I 3 stocked the Ness with some real fancy offstage play.
Then I played against the same fighters with my Rosalina and Luma. Since, if I’m going to make one of my current favorites my only secondary it would have to be her. It didn’t go as well. I was able to beat Ness by using Gravitational Pull on all his PKthunder recoveries but that was it. This may not be quite a fair comparison since I had been playing Greininja all week, and was really dialed in to his gameplay, particularly on this night. But Rosalina was just too slow and floaty against the bad Joker match-ups.
To recap Greninja overall. His strengths are great speed, a very good combo game, maybe the best recovery in the game, confirms that kill early for such a light character, and probably the 2nd best counter in the game. His weakness are his light weight makes him die very early to hard hitting moves, he has no good out of shield options, despite his recovery going offstage for kills is usually a bad idea, his neutral game is very limited, his counter is hard to hit, and he has not great disadvantage.
So at the end of the week, what do I think? I think Greninja is potenially my secondary for Joker. As I’ve said, I really struggle with the smaller characters, and the light fast characters with Joker. I could just work on buffing my Ness for those match-ups, but then what do I do when I face another Ness (which will happen if I’m doing mostly online tourneys)? I think Greninja is a perfect counter for those characters, and by the last day of the week he was really clicking with me. There is the downside of his high skill floor. The timing of his aerials and kill confirms is tight. His movement is unique. Even if I try to play one day a week with him, it’s going to be hard to switch from Joker to Greninja mid-set. But I think unless I decide to drop Joker as a main, or find an ever better secondary during the rest of these tryouts; Joker/Greninja is the best team for me.
So next week, on to try out more characters. I’m pretty pleased with how this is going so far. And this week was a perfect example of why you stick with a character for the full tryout.